Mechanic: Inheritance: Katana

[Asako Sanzo]

If the Inherited blade is to not give bonuses to Iaijutsu, then what sort of non-combat rolls should it give a bonus to?

Defense would probably encroach upon being combat-related. Intimidation when threatening a duel/violence with the inherited weapon? Or maybe expand that more generally to social rolls directly related to combat/dueling? Some examples of this could be:
-threatening a duel/violence (Intimidation)
-trolling a brash bushi into a duel (Temptation)
-promising that you'll back your words with steel (Sincerity)

[Vutall]

I could see all those being good examples!

[Mai]

I could see splitting the baby.

Bonus for Focus, but not Assessment. My reasoning is Assessment is more or less using your eyes, while Focus is preparing for the strike.

[Vutall]

I just want to throw this out there. I have confirmed from multiple sources from playtesters and people who worked on 4e that the Inheritance was always intended to work on Assessment and Focus.

Votes say we can't use it right now, so it doesn't change much. But should be made aware.

[Doji Kotomi]

So is the void battery combo. So is Mental Quickness giving 3 int. So is the Silent Waters combo.

Just because it was intended that way, doesn't mean it's balanced.

[Mai]

While I'm not voting (I have never done enough duels that I feel the right to vote, especially when Mai won't be dueling anytime soon), I do want to point out that balance on the table is different than pbp. A powerful combo isn't necessarily go to throw off balance of 3-5 players as opposed to 20-40 who may not as unified as a tabletop group.

[Yasuki Ginkarasu]

The balance of L5R is always threatened by a skilled duelist, because it is one of the hard and fast parts of the setting that settles disputes. Adding the blade to someone who is already focused on dueling is impressive, but often at the exp levels we're at, means less when added to a skilled, focused duelist. Adding it to someone with less of a focus in dueling is often a bigger leap. It is after all, nearly the same as a Kakita's rank 1 technique.

I don't argue that it's powerful.

I do argue that we had the entire length of the game to bring it up, and it is only brought up at the end of the game when people could choose to have it. After, in fact, people chose to have it.

[Kaito Haruki]

I'll admit, I wasn't looking close enough at the rewards. I already decided what I wanted on first glance. Should i have done a better job reading everything before I joined, absolutely; does that mean those who chose it should keep it, debatable.

[Yasuki Ginkarasu]

I already made peace with it being taken away. It's almost as powerful as a school technique. I can understand someone seeing an advantage given out to a bunch of people making that a threat.

The fact that the school technique is more powerful, and can be utilized in more situations, leaves the Kakita Duelist still the superior choice if you want to be the best duelist. Not having a way to even the playing field means I give up the idea of Ginkarasu having a chance. That's per normal for someone playing Crab when talking about dueling, so I can let that go and we'll move on.

That doesn't mean I think it was right to do so. But it does mean I can keep playing despite that avenue of choice being taken away after a month of play.

[Doji Kotomi]

I do argue that we had the entire length of the game to bring it up, and it is only brought up at the end of the game when people could choose to have it. After, in fact, people chose to have it.

It was only brought up that it worked on assessment/focus when someone asked at the end of the game. I had no idea before then or I'd have said it much sooner

[Vutall]

It was in the changes/errata from the start, I just removed it when the poll started.

[Bayushi Jiro]

I voted yes. I don't think it's that much of an issue to have someone able to compete with a master-duelist instead of automatic failure. Having played duelists a ton, it is the unfair positioning of the Kaktia and the Shiba that leads to dueling being resented by the playerbase, who (perhaps rightly) ask the question: "why on earth would my clan accept the results of a contest that they have no chance to reasonably win as legally binding?"

It is natural for folks playing Kakita and Shiba to want to defend their turf, but if they don't cede a little, they are going to find more and more people just refusing to play that part of the game. Obviously, duels are unavoidable for bushi at Topaz, but try to have your duelist be relevant as a duelist anywhere else. It isn't easy, and many players will grow to resent your character. I've tried many times. Characters might be beloved, but people shudder and get defensive anytime a duel is mooted.

Kakita and Shiba still have the advantage in duels when this advantage is available to others. We all know that static bonuses are better than dice, and that Shiba void-abuse breaks games. A Kakita with this advantage is unbeatable at lower insight levels, so there's a double-edged sword, here, but in the interest of giving other bushi a chance, however small, I chose yes.

[Doji Kotomi]

Just to check, although the no side is still winning...if you do allow it can we make sheet changes?

[Vutall]

Sheets can be changed up til the 31st

[Otomo Nobuko]

I voted yes. It was always overpowered but it's an inheritance item that can't be used in a skirmish so /shrug

[Iuchi Prashant]

I voted yes. I don't think it's that much of an issue to have someone able to compete with a master-duelist instead of automatic failure. Having played duelists a ton, it is the unfair positioning of the Kaktia and the Shiba that leads to dueling being resented by the playerbase, who (perhaps rightly) ask the question: "why on earth would my clan accept the results of a contest that they have no chance to reasonably win as legally binding?"

It is natural for folks playing Kakita and Shiba to want to defend their turf, but if they don't cede a little, they are going to find more and more people just refusing to play that part of the game. Obviously, duels are unavoidable for bushi at Topaz, but try to have your duelist be relevant as a duelist anywhere else. It isn't easy, and many players will grow to resent your character. I've tried many times. Characters might be beloved, but people shudder and get defensive anytime a duel is mooted.

Kakita and Shiba still have the advantage in duels when this advantage is available to others. We all know that static bonuses are better than dice, and that Shiba void-abuse breaks games. A Kakita with this advantage is unbeatable at lower insight levels, so there's a double-edged sword, here, but in the interest of giving other bushi a chance, however small, I chose yes.

Using Jiro's comment here to elaborate a bit further on why I think this bonus is not a very good idea (even if it working for duels was the design intent).

I definitely agree with Jiro that the bonus Kakita and Shiva receive in duels make them better duelists than basically anyone else, including other schools which in lore are supposed to be good in duels (Sun Tao, Mirumoto, and so on), and that 'that', rather than the advantage itself, is the main problem with duelling.

I do agree that having ways to give characters from other clans a chance to catch up, however small, is nice. But then as Jiro said, Kakita with this advantage become nigh unbeatable. I mean, the problem for me is not so much that the advantage is almost as good as a technique and would 'render the technique moot'.

The problem is more that 'not having' that advantage becomes an awful choice for anyone who wants to be able to have any chance in duels. Building a dedicated duellist already involves going for a quite narrow focus with your points usually - Kakita would then either be able to be decent duellists and still spend some points elsewhere, or be very focused and almost unbeatable.

I believe including this advantage with this bonus thus means most characters interested in duelling will have to go for it, thus both limiting their own choices to be able to catch up, and kicking out of the playing field altogether anyone who for some reason decides not to go for the advantage (for RPing reasons even - maybe it doesn't make sense for your duellist to be to have an Inheritance related to duelling, maybe you're trying to build a Ronin duellist - in any case it strikes me as odd that anyone who wants to be a decent, let alone a dedicated duellist, will have to find a way to justify 'inheriting a nifty blade').

Notice that Ginka's problem with the bonus to duels not being used derives from that - he hoped to have a chance (due mostly to Kakita being so good in duels to begin with). But then the same pressure applies to Crane bushi interested in duels, and if they go for that, the playing field is as uneven as always - or in fact more so for non-Kakita (or Shiba void bombers) without the blade.

I know my earlier suggestion for a smaller bonus doesn't change all of this that much - I thought maybe the smaller bonus made it less of a "tax" to be paid by anyone who wanted to build a duellist, thus making the weapon more a 'nice little extra with fun other uses outside of duels' than a 'necessity for anyone wanting a chance at duels'. But it would involve using different rules for the advantage, which is more complicated - and in the end the balance problem in duels remain either way.

All that said, I feel particularly for the Mirumoto duellists in 4th ed

Sorry for the wall of text : )

[Vutall]

When we have such high stats as we do now, it's much less of a bonus for Kakita than for others.

Let's say Void 4, Iaijutsu 7.

Kakita: Focus roll:

11k4+Kakita (1k1+1)+Center (1k1+4)+Honor Roll w/ Virtuous Advantage (+7k0) +Win Assessment (+2k2) +Iaujutsu Mastery (+5)+Void (+1k1)
=23k9+10=21k10+10=10k10+32

Then add the +1k1 from Inheritenace, and it becomes 10k10+36


Now, lets go with an Akodo with the same stats:
11k4+Center (1k1+4)+Honor Roll w/ Virtuous Advantage (+7k0) +Win Assessment (+2k2) +Iaujutsu Mastery (+5)+Void (+1k1)
=22k8+9=18k10+9=10k10+25

Adding the +1k1 from Inheritance and its 10k10+23


And say someone who doesn't go heavy dueling, it's a much bigger bonus:

Mantis Bushi with Void 4 and Iaijutsu 3

7k4+Center (1k1+4)+Honor Roll (+3k0) +Win Assessment (+1k1)
=12k6+4=10k7+4

Adding Inheritance=10k8+4, which puts them no where in the realm of the Kakita or Akodo above, but still gives them somewhat of a chance.

[Doji Kotomi]

In your examples the Inheritance adds +4. You have to win the focus roll by +5, so that means inheritance makes it so you only have to win by 1. Without the inheritance, it becomes a level playing field between duelists. If one person has the inheritance and one person doesn't, it could be the difference between kharmic strike or not.

So what we're saying is, if we include this it becomes mandatory for everyone to have this, meaning every player who intends to duel has to spend 5 xp before they even begin to work on their character or be behind immediately on duels.

Do we really want forced mandatory advantages?

[Kaiu Aiichiro]

In your examples the Inheritance adds +4. You have to win the focus roll by +5, so that means inheritance makes it so you only have to win by 1. Without the inheritance, it becomes a level playing field between duelists. If one person has the inheritance and one person doesn't, it could be the difference between kharmic strike or not.

So what we're saying is, if we include this it becomes mandatory for everyone to have this, meaning every player who intends to duel has to spend 5 xp before they even begin to work on their character or be behind immediately on duels.

Do we really want forced mandatory advantages?

So you suggest reworking the Kakita and Shiba?

[Kaito Haruki]

Not sure how much good reworking school techniques will do if incoming characters can have 7 iaijutsu and 5 void/air