Social Skill Clarifications: It's Not Mind Control! (Reminder)

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Vutall
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Social Skill Clarifications: It's Not Mind Control! (Reminder)

Post by Vutall » Sun May 24, 2020 9:48 pm

Just wanted to type up a little clarification about social skills that end up contested.

If there is not a contested roll or the GM has not set a TN, assume the base TN for all rolls to be successful in New Winds part 1 to be 6. All other games the base TN is 15. A success does not guarantee that you get the EXACT thing that you want, but instead says "I get some kind of reaction that will help me."

Want to debate about something? Courtier.
Want to just generally seem a cultured member of society capable of leaving a good impression? Etiquette.
Want to tell the truth about something that may be hard to believe? Sincerity (Honesty)
Want to tell a lie? Sincerity (Deceit).
Want to lure a guard away from his post? Temptation.
Want to threaten some bandits to back off? Intimidation.

Courtier:
When you roll courtier, you are rolling to persuade someone or make an argument. The base TN is a courtier roll is 15 (6 in New Winds part 1), with raising making it more effective. A high roll generally means how successful you are at getting the point across in socially acceptable manners. Arguments using courtier that are a successful roll should sway their targets opinion more to the courtiers stance. Courtier is not a skill used to order people around.


Etiquette:
When you roll etiquette, you are rolling to disagree with a courtiers roll in a polite and proper way, or finding a socially acceptable way to do something that might normally be considered rude, like pointing out a mistake, explaining why you did something, or explaining why you did not follow an order.
Contested Courtier vs Etiquette:
If Courtier wins the contested roll, it does not mean that the target of the courtiers words HAS to agree with what the courtier said, but if the etiquette roller does not, it says that the etiquette roller did not find a socially acceptable way to disagree with the courtier or to counter their argument. Still, some in society may side with the etiquette rollers point of view, but the courtier won over just enough people to have power.

If Etiquette win the contested roll, it does not mean that the courtier was wrong, but that the Etiquette roller found a way in setting to have a reason to go against the courtiers argument, and that society would see no shame in the etiquette rollers response.
Note: In a court setting, generally players are rolling Courtier to convince the Lord of the court to do something. Other players who want something different are also rolling courtier. If a player wants to directly argue what another player is requesting, after their target has rolled Courtier, they would roll Etiquette. If they want to both argue against, and bring up their own counter argument, after the first Courtier roll, they would first roll Etiquette and then roll Courtier


Sincerity (Honesty)
When you roll Sincerity (Honesty) it is to tell someone something your character believes is true in a convincing manner. Additionally, it is the skill used for "double speak", where a person is trying to say something without directly saying it, like discussing the failings of a Clan without directly saying what happened. If the Elemental Master is actually a Kitsune Spirit and you saw them change, you would roll Sincerity (Honesty) to convince people that you believe whole heartedly that it is true. The base TN for Sincerity (Honesty) rolls is TN15 (6 in New Winds Part 1), with raises to make more skeptical people believe you better.
Contested Sincerity (Honesty) vs Sincerity (Honesty)
If two players are trying to say something they both think is true, (Like: I think the person who entered was a Crane vs I think the person who entered was a Ronin) the player with the higher roll in a contested roll between them would be believed more.

Contested Sincerity (Honesty) vs Sincerity (Deceit)
If one player is telling a truth and one player is telling a lie, the character with the higher roll in a contested roll is the more believable one.

Contested Investigation vs Sincerity (Honesty)
If you do not believe someone, you can roll investigation to see if they are being honest with you. Failure by the Investigation roll does not mean the Sincerity roll is not true, but more the Investigation roll not being able to get a good read on how they feel about it. The Sincerity roller can voluntarily fail this roll, letting the investigator see the truth of their statement clearly.

--Note: If OOC a player wants to believe, they do not need to take into consideration the roll and can just accept that they are being told the truth, but remember to look at it through their characters eyes when making the consideration

Sincerity (Deceit)
When you roll Sincerity (Deceit) it is to tell someone something that ISNT true. If the Elemental Master is an Isawa born and you tell people they are a Kitsune spirit, you would roll Sincerity (Deceit) to convince people. This is where double speak also comes into play. When a morbidly obese governor asks a samurai if he is not the greatest warrior in the Empire, the samurai cautiously responds with “All other warriors would surely vanish within your mighty shadow"
Contested Sincerity (Deceit) vs Investigation
If a player would NOT believe a story they are told, and the story is a lie, they would roll their Investigation against the players Sincerity (Deceit).

If Investigation wins, they know the character is lying, or that they don't believe in the words they are saying.

If Sincerity wins, then the lie is thought to be true, or that the person saying it believes it to be.
Special Note about Sincerity: The point of Sincerity is that it is something the character rolling it believes to be true, not that is the actual truth. If I say that the Elemental master is a Kitsune, it may not be actually true, but I believe it to be. It doesn't force other to believe the same thing, either. Just because I think the elemental master is a kitsune doesn't override the 15 years you have lived with him and never once seen anything like him being a shapeshifter. Some may believe you fully, some may think you saw someone be a shapeshifter, or some may think that the elemental master did something that looked like shapeshifting...but they are all 100% that you are telling what you believe happened.


Temptation
If a character uses Temptation, they are trying to get another character to do something for they that the other character usually would not, like take a bribe, or succumb to a sexual advance. The roll is to determine how persuasive you are at convincing the other player that doing the act being tempted would be socially acceptable. It is not a "charm" that makes them do something they would not wish to do. Raises on these rolls make it even harder to resist, however.

Contested Temptation vs Etiquette:
When a player is targeted by Temptation, they roll Etiquette to resist. The resistance is a means of either controlling their feelings on the matter, or having a polite and socially acceptable reason for why they are not going to do what they are tempted to do.

If Temptation wins, it means that the character being tempted would think it reasonable to do what they are being tempted to do. It does not however force them to do it. For example, they might be more willing to the idea of taking a bribe, but if the player doesn't want the character to take the bribe, they do not have to. The character might feel as if they missed an opportunity or may feel that they need more to safely indulge in the option if they are tempted, but still choose not to do what they are tempted to do. When refusing to do something you are successfully targeted by temptation, you should still give the person rolling temptation some useful bit of information. For example, if they are trying to seduce you, you could refuse in a way that shows them your sexuality is different, or that you are married and faithful.

If Etiquette wins, it means that they either completely resisted the temptation, or they found a socially acceptable way to deny the temptation without causing offense. Likely both at the same time.

Intimidation
If a character uses Intimidation, they are using threats (physically or politically) to get what they want. Generally, an Intimidation roll says something along the lines of "Do this, or else this happens". The roll itself is to see how convincing the threat is. It is not a "charm" that makes them do something they would not wish to do. Successful torture does force a player however to give in to the torturers demands.

Contested Intimidation vs Etiquette (Courtesy)/Willpower.
When a player is targeted by Intimidation, they are rolling to see how much they believe the the threat conveyed will actually happen if they don't do as told, or the torture being inflicted on them stop if they give in.

If Intimidation wins, the threat is very convincing, and the player being intimidated will believe that the repercussions described are going to happen. However, it still does not automatically mean that the act being requested by the Intimidation will happen. When being Tortured, a successful intimidate roll does get an appropriate answer to asked questions.

If Etiquette (Courtesy)/Willpower wins, the threat is not convincing at all, and the character does not feel that there will be any repercussions. It also means that they found a socially acceptable way to resist the intimidation. In the case of Torture, it is both a means of showing that they are strong willed and do not give in, or that they do not believe the torture would stop even if they gave in
.
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Eye on the others surviving among us
American pie getting sliced up above us
Trickling down while we're dying of hunger.

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Vutall
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Re: Social Skill Clarifications (It's Not Mind Control!)

Post by Vutall » Sun May 24, 2020 10:19 pm

Character Skill Not Player Skill

Not everyone in real life are politicians, word smiths, or natural English speakers (or even use words the same way if they are). Please keep that in mind and let the roll represent how good the argument being made is, and not what is written.

That said, it is much more enjoyable to have players type out things other than simply saying "I try to convince the Emperor to make the Mantis a Great Clan", so whenever you can, try to have a well thought out post.

If there is a misunderstanding between players and what is trying to be conveyed, attempt to work it out first with each other through PMs or Discord, and if still there are misunderstandings, ask a GM to help.

The same statement is true for Lore Skills, but if a character blatantly writes something incorrect and rolls the lore and succeeds, the post will need to be edited with the correct information. In this case, proceed with the thread as if the written word was true, and the GMs will point out the mistake and have the post edited with correct information. Please ask a GM first before you post if you are unsure about something so there isn't a need for retcons.
__________
Primary colors divide us and love us
Eye on the others surviving among us
American pie getting sliced up above us
Trickling down while we're dying of hunger.

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Vutall
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Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:27 am

Re: Social Skill Clarifications: It's Not Mind Control! (Reminder)

Post by Vutall » Mon May 25, 2020 8:48 am

Please remember, using Sincerity (Deceit), Temptation, or Intimidation are all considered using a low skill and incur the appropriate honor loss.

Not all types of Deceit are dishonorable however, so use of the skill isn't an automatic ding.
__________
Primary colors divide us and love us
Eye on the others surviving among us
American pie getting sliced up above us
Trickling down while we're dying of hunger.

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