The New Winds

In 5th edition, there are "Kata" that are used by courtiers and other social schools to grant them an ability using Opportunities (which are a result on dice rolls). I like the idea, but want to get a feel for what the community thinks. Below is a quick example of one created from 5th ed to work in 4th ed.

Shūji are social techniques, leveraging that most powerful of human tools: communication. Shūji can be used in conflicts as common sense and the GM’s discretion dictate. Only Courtier, Artisan, and Shinobi characters can take Shūji normally, though a title may grant the ability to take them for Bushi or Monk characters.

Cadence Rank 1
In courtly situations, it can be advantageous for courtiers of the same clan to be able to communicate wordlessly.

Activation: When you make a Social skill check, you may call raises to activate this technique.
1 Raise: Convey a secret message that alters the meaning of what you are saying outwardly (or has nothing to do with it at all) to one character observing you who possesses this technique.

Two Raises:: Convey a secret message that alters the meaning of what you are saying outwardly (or has nothing to do with it at all) to one character observing you who does not possess this technique.

Shuji are one of the most interesting things from 5E and something that i really feel Courtiers need to come to parity. Also, it just gives them more options to customize their character and a few other things to spend XP on.

I'm not opposed to courtly kata in general, but if you use the example you've given, that's every Crane Courtier's second school technique available for purchase to the general public.

I've always found that Cadence probably should be something taught in every courtier dojo, and that the Crane courtier schools having a monopoly on it doesn't make much sense, but then the Crane are going to need something different for their super-duper-secret extra-special school tech.

Unless you make everyone's Rank 2 into a "courtier kata." But then, again, what makes the schools special?



As a friendly and not-super-committed counter-argument to having more things to spend xp on; in 4E, Courtiers tend to spend a lot more points in Advantages like Allies and Blackmail.

Correct, if I do implement these, I would be re-writing the three crane courtier schools rank 2 technique.

Bayushi Jiro wrote: ↑

Tue May 19, 2020 8:06 pm

I'm not opposed to courtly kata in general, but if you use the example you've given, that's every Crane Courtier's second school technique available for purchase to the general public.

I've always found that Cadence probably should be something taught in every courtier dojo, and that the Crane courtier schools having a monopoly on it doesn't make much sense, but then the Crane are going to need something different for their super-duper-secret extra-special school tech.

Unless you make everyone's Rank 2 into a "courtier kata." But then, again, what makes the schools special?



As a friendly and not-super-committed counter-argument to having more things to spend xp on; in 4E, Courtiers tend to spend a lot more points in Advantages like Allies and Blackmail.

Any character with a Courtier of 5 of more (something an average courtier will get at rank 2) can understand Cadence.
But I don't like the idea of social kata.

I don't understand why this is needed. Courtiers don't need kata, they have stronger social abilities for a reason. This feels like a waste of resource

Doji Sakura wrote: ↑

Tue May 19, 2020 10:18 pm

I don't understand why this is needed. Courtiers don't need kata, they have stronger social abilities for a reason. This feels like a waste of resource

I don't understand why this is needed. Bushi / Monks don't need kata / kiho, they have stronger comabt / mystical abilities for a reason. This feels like a waste of resource.

It gives you ways to make your character stand out more than just being a Doji Courtier or a Soshi Courtier, etc

I don't mind either way. I like experimentation.

Togashi Minashingo wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 4:21 am

Doji Sakura wrote: ↑

Tue May 19, 2020 10:18 pm

I don't understand why this is needed. Courtiers don't need kata, they have stronger social abilities for a reason. This feels like a waste of resource

I don't understand why this is needed. Bushi / Monks don't need kata / kiho, they have stronger comabt / mystical abilities for a reason. This feels like a waste of resource.

It gives you ways to make your character stand out more than just being a Doji Courtier or a Soshi Courtier, etc

This seems incredibly unhelpful and quite mocking.

Monks do need Kiho, as they get no school techs. That's like saying Shugenja don't need spells, so kind of silly. Bushi also don't need kata, which is why most kata don't usually get taken - so yes, it indeed was a waste of resource, although it at least fits the flavour of bushi. Courtiers also have stronger basic school techs than bushi, even with bushi having access to kata. Social kata don't fit the flavour of courtiers, nor is it something they need.

I welcome all discussion, just keep the debates to friendly tone. I know it is passion and all, and it's hard to tell tone via text! Emojis help with this!

To help flesh this out a little more, i just did a quick mock up, note I did not convert the mechanics from 5e to 4e here. Some general ideas: Opp can be either raises or void expenditure. Strife is ignored. Advantage means reroll 2 dice, so possibly gain emphasis. Disadvantage means reroll 2 dice, so possibly -1k0. vigilance is similar to an awareness check, TN 1=15, 2-20, etc, Scheme Support, and other Actions are kind different ways a skill roll applies. Intrigues are social scenes, Duels are more than just iaijutsu, skirmish is skirmish.

Obviously, it would be a lot of work and require a heavy hand of what actually gets included and what it does.

Hida Defender
Rank 1:
Honest Assessment
Rank 2:
Touchstone of Courage
Slippery Maneuvers
Rank 3:
Rallying Cry
Rank 4:
A Samurai's Fate
Rank 5:
Rouse the Soul
The Immovable Hand of Peace

Hiruma Scout
1
Slippery Maneuvers
2
Rank 1-2 Water
3
Touchestone of Courage
4
Rank 1-4 Air
5
Rouse the Soul

Kaiu Engineer
1
Rank 1 Earth
2
n/a
3
Rank 1-3 Water
Pillar of Calm
4
Rank 1-4 Fire
5
Rank 1-5 Earth
Sear the Wound

Kuni Purifier
N/a

Yasuki Merchant
1
Rank 1 Earth
Triburaries of Trade
All in Jest
2
Rank 1-2 Fire
Ebb and Flow
Slippery Maneuvers
3
Rank 1-3 Air
Pillar of Calm
4
Rank 1-4 Water
Bouyant Arrival
Bravado
5
Rank 1-5 Void
The immovable Hand of Peace
Lady Doji's Decree



Honest Assessment Rank 1 Earth
Honesty is a virtue of Bushidō, but direct honesty is often seen as rudeness among the samurai—instead, one is expected to find a polite way to imply one’s meaning to spare the feelings of the other involved. As a result, directness can be something of a rare and valuable commodity.

Activation: As a Support action, you may make a TN 2 Courtesy (Earth) check to appraise the weaknesses of a character.

Effects: If you succeed, choose one of the target’s known disadvantages. The target does not apply that disadvantage to their checks until the end of the scene.
New Opportunities
Earth 1 opp+: Choose one additional disadvantage per 1opp spent this way.
Earth 2opp: Reduce the TN of the target’s next skill check using the ring the disadvantage is attached to by 2.


Touchstone of Courage Rank 3 Earth
Armies are rarely routed in the field; instead, most collapse when morale becomes impossible to maintain. As panic rises in the ranks, soldiers look to leaders to set an example. The character does just this, speaking to the importance of duty to bring their troops back from the edge of chaos.

Activation: As a Support action, you may make a TN 4 Command (Earth) check targeting any number of characters (or your cohort during a mass battle).

Effects: If you succeed during an intrigue, duel, or skirmish conflict, each target increases their composure by your Earth Ring. This effect persists until the end of the scene. If you succeed during a mass battle, increase your army’s discipline by your Earth Ring plus your bonus successes. This effect persists until the end of the scene.
New Opportunities
Earth 2opp: During an intrigue, duel, or skirmish, each target removes strife equal to your Earth Ring.
Earth 2 opp: During a mass battle, your army removes panic equal to your Earth Ring.


Slippery Maneuvers Rank 2 Water
The leader makes several signals and calls out a command—often a code word—to their troops; suddenly, the formation shifts in unison to take advantage of the terrain around them.

Activation: As a Movement and Support action, you may make a TN 2 Command (Water) check targeting any number of friendly characters in the scene (or your cohort during a mass battle). This technique can only be used during a skirmish or mass battle. Effects: If you succeed during a skirmish, choose a position containing terrain that you can see. Each target may immediately move 1 range band toward it. Attack checks targeting any of your targets inside the terrain treat the terrain as having the Obscuring terrain quality. This effect persists until the end of the scene. If you succeed during a mass battle, choose a piece of terrain you can see. You and your cohort may immediately move to occupy it if it is unoccupied. Attack action checks targeting you and your cohort while you are inside the terrain treat the terrain as having the Obscuring terrain quality. This effect persists until the end of the scene.

New Opportunities
Water 1opp: Each target is able to leverage Obscuring terrain to better effect; Attack action checks targeting them have their TN increased by 2 instead of 1. This effect persists until the end of the scene.


Rallying Cry Rank 3 Fire
The leader roars, calling their troops to battle, and the voice of an army echoes around them as the single cry is joined by many. As one, the troops surge forward to claim victory or perish in the attempt.

Activation: As a Support action, you may make a TN 2 Command (Fire) or Performance (Fire) check targeting any number of characters in the scene (or one cohort in a mass battle).
Effects: If you succeed, the targets are energized and excited by your rhetoric. After Step 5: Choose Kept Dice, each target adds a kept black die set to an success, opp result. This effect persists until the end of your next turn.

New Opportunities
Fire opp+: In a skirmish, each enemy in the scene suffers 1 strife per opp spent this way.
Fire opp+: In a mass battle, the enemy army suffers 1 panic per opp spent this way.


A Samurai’s Fate Rank 4 Void
A leader asks their warriors for the final service all samurai must someday render to their lord: to lay down their lives that others might live. Even as they fall in battle, their shed blood waters the fields that will grow a thousand victories.

Activation: As an action, you make a TN 5 Command (Void) check targeting any number of characters (or your cohort, during a mass battle).
Effects: If you succeed during a skirmish, each target ignores any critical strikes with severity lower than your Void Ring plus your bonus successes. This effect persists until the end of the scene (at which point the injuries take effect). If you succeed during a mass battle, your army counts as having the Fearless Army ability, below: Fearless Army: At the end of each round, your army removes panic equal to your glory rank. This effect persists until the end of the scene.


Rouse the Soul Rank 5 Void
Many things can cloud the soul, but words can awaken it. The courtier speaks honestly and without pretension, calling upon their allies to overcome earthly circumstances and reach a mutual goal.

Activation: When making a Social skill (Void) or Theology (Void) check targeting one or more characters, you may spend opp in the following way:
Void opp+: Remove one of the following conditions from one target per opp spent this way: Afflicted, Enraged, Exhausted, Intoxicated, or Unconscious.


The Immovable Hand of Peace Rank 5 Earth
The courtier calls for the warriors in the field to lay down their arms and withdraw with such unquestionable conviction that even the fires of hate are temporarily smothered.

Activation: Once per game session as a Scheme action, during a duel or skirmish, you may make a TN 5 Command (Earth) check targeting every character in the scene.
Effects: If you succeed, the scene becomes an intrigue between you and the other principal characters. This effect persists for one round, plus additional rounds equal to your bonus successes. If you have not achieved a peaceful resolution by the time this effect ends, the scene returns to its previous state.
New Opportunities Earth opp: You may also perform this action during a mass battle or other form of conflict (other than an intrigue).


Slippery Maneuvers Rank 2 Water
The leader makes several signals and calls out a command—often a code word—to their troops; suddenly, the formation shifts in unison to take advantage of the terrain around them.

Activation: As a Movement and Support action, you may make a TN 2 Command (Water) check targeting any number of friendly characters in the scene (or your cohort during a mass battle). This technique can only be used during a skirmish or mass battle.
Effects: If you succeed during a skirmish, choose a position containing terrain that you can see. Each target may immediately move 1 range band toward it. Attack checks targeting any of your targets inside the terrain treat the terrain as having the Obscuring terrain quality. This effect persists until the end of the scene. If you succeed during a mass battle, choose a piece of terrain you can see. You and your cohort may immediately move to occupy it if it is unoccupied. Attack action checks targeting you and your cohort while you are inside the terrain treat the terrain as having the Obscuring terrain quality. This effect persists until the end of the scene.
New Opportunities
Water opp: Each target is able to leverage Obscuring terrain to better effect; Attack action checks targeting them have their TN increased by 2 instead of 1. This effect persists until the end of the scene.


Pillar of Calm Rank 4 Earth
The character calls for reason to prevail and swords to be sheathed, appealing to a common ideal or greater threat that stands before the belligerent parties.

Activation: As a Scheme and Support action, you may make a Command (Earth) check targeting a number of characters up to your Earth Ring times your school rank. The TN of this check is equal to the highest strife among the targets.
Effects: If you succeed while targeting all of the leaders involved in a conflict, you may de-escalate the conflict one level (from a mass battle to a skirmish, a skirmish to a duel, or a duel to an intrigue).
New Opportunities
Earth 2opp+: You may de-escalate the conflict by one additional level per 2opp spent this way.


Sear the Wound Rank 5 Fire
Many courtiers cannot resist the opportunity to twist the knife after delivering a stabbing remark, but the wise use this power judiciously. Though somewhat cruel, the technique of bringing a rival’s weakness to the forefront of their mind to burn away at their resolve is often effective.

Activation: When making a Social skill (Fire) check targeting one or more characters, you may spend opp in the following way:
Fire opp+: Choose a known disadvantage of one of your targets per opp spent this way. That disadvantage applies to all of the target’s checks until the end of the scene.


Tributaries of Trade Rank 2 Water
Gift giving is an important cultural practice in Rokugan (as is the art of gift refusal, which any potential recipient must repeat at least twice before accepting the third offer). While some courtiers have a gift prepared for any possible contingency, many simply get acquainted with the art of explaining why a gift could only have been intended for its current recipient (even if they originally procured it for a different purpose). The ability to quickly acquire an item is valued among all courtiers, as a gift demands reciprocity in some kind, whether that be in favors, esteem, or subsequent gifts.

Activation: Once per scene as a Scheme and Support action, you may make a TN 1 Commerce (Water) skill check to establish that you acquired a chosen item earlier. From a narrative standpoint, you procured this gift during your last opportunity (or sent an attendant to retrieve it) but are only revealing it now.
Effects: If you succeed, you produce an item with a rarity less than or equal to 1 plus your bonus successes. You must still pay the price of the item.
New Opportunities
Water opp+: Reduce the price you must pay for the item by one-quarter per opp spent this way (to a minimum of one-quarter of the original price).


All in Jest Rank 1 Water
Veteran courtiers sometimes play off missteps as jokes. This underhanded but effective tactic puts the other person in a difficult position: press the issue and seem stubborn, or let it slide and give the courtier a pass.

Activation: When you make a Commerce (Water), Courtesy (Water), or Performance (Water) check, you may spend opp in the following way:
Water opp+: If you forfeited honor as part of the check in order to say something rude or appeal to your target’s base desires (greed, lust, laziness, etc.), regain 1 honor per opp spent this way (see Forfeiting Social Attributes, on page 37).


Ebb and Flow Rank 3 Water
Just as hardest ice and the gentlest mist are composed of the same water, seasoned courtiers know that all it takes is time and work to transform strength into weakness and weakness into strength. The courtier manipulates a person's perceptions with ease, keeping their allies confident and their foes uneasy.

Activation: As a Scheme or Support action, you may make a Courtesy (Water), Command (Water), or
Games (Water) check targeting one character. The TN of this check is equal to the target’s vigilance.
Effects: If you succeed (and chose Scheme action), choose one of the target’s advantages that you know; whenever it applies, invert it. This effect persists until the end of the scene. If you succeed (and chose Support action), choose one of the target’s disadvantages you know; whenever it applies, invert it. This effect persists until the end of the scene.
New Opportunities
Water opp: Choose one additional advantage or disadvantage and apply the effect to it.
Water 2opp+: Choose one additional target with vigilance lower than or equal to your first target’s vigilance per 2opp spent this way.


Buoyant Arrival Rank 5 Water
Some people have the ability to blend in with any social environment, fluidly adapting to the rough atmosphere of the humblest tavern one day, while walking among the rulers of the Empire the next.

Activation: As a Scheme action, you may make a Courtesy (Water) check targeting a number of characters up to your Water Ring. The TN of the check is equal to the vigilance of the character with the highest status among your targets.
Effects: If you succeed, you may enter or leave the conversation gracefully. You need not forfeit honor or glory for interrupting, suddenly departing, or preempting someone else, regardless of the respective status of the participants.



Bravado Rank 4 Fire
Glory is half reputation and half poise. The courtier displays a confident mien, speaking more informally than propriety should allow. Their words and posture carry a tinge of arrogance, making them harder to ignore.

Activation: As a Scheme action, you may make a Games (Fire) or Performance (Fire) check targeting any number of characters in the scene. The TN of this check is equal to the highest vigilance among your targets.
Effects: If you succeed, each target behaves as though your glory is 10 higher or lower than its actual value, plus or minus an additional 10 for each bonus success (to a maximum glory value of 100 or a minimum glory value of 0). If you do anything that could call your glory into question, any character may resist with a TN 4 Sentiment check (Air 5, Water 2) to determine your actual glory attribute. This effect persists until the end of the scene.
New Opportunities
Fire opp: Choose a character in the scene. Learn if their glory is higher or lower than yours (the actual value).


Lady Doji’s Decree (Crane) Rank 2 Void
Propriety, grace, and eloquence were of great importance to the founder of the Crane Clan. With a word, she was said to defuse the most dangerous situations. Crane Clan courtiers follow in her footsteps, forcing bystanders to listen with a single striking comment.

Activation: Once per game session as an action, you may make a Courtesy (Void) check targeting a number of characters up to your school rank. The TN of this check is equal to the vigilance of the character with the highest status among your targets.
Effects: If you succeed, your targets cannot perform Attack actions targeting you. This effect persists for one round, plus additional rounds equal to your bonus successes, or until you perform an Attack action.
New Opportunities
Void Opp+: Choose one additional target with status lower than your first target per opp spent this way.
Void 2opp: Your targets also cannot perform Scheme actions targeting you.

I've tentatively voted yes on the poll, but I think implementation will make or break this mechanic. I think it's something that should be added and worked on throughout the beginning stages of the campaign. If they break the game in some way or end up useless, it's easy enough to pull them out and refund the XP invested. If they need tweaking, that can be handled in a feedback thread. It's hard to say anything definitively without first seeing how the mechanics function in play.

As someone who primarily plays courtiers, I really liked the addition of shūji in 5E. In 4E, playing a courtier is about being proactive. It requires very heavy GM interaction in order to figure out whether or not you can do something with your skills or advantages. I think shūji are a good way to lessen the required interaction and provide some fun maneuvers that can be used in RP.

Ideally, anything we get a high majority vote on to be implemented (like, 75% in favor or so) I'll have done up so we can use it in part 2, that way we will be able to see how it works in game, and then re-vote if we want to keep or not.

One bad game though can absolutely break a campaign however, so it's always nerve racking.

I'm going to be leary of things that add free raises. 3rd ed's problem was a significant amount of free raises.

Agreed, I should be more clear. Opp means costs either a raise or a void point. In 5e, it's a result on dice rolls (You have symbols on the dice, some are success, which go toward TN of a check, some are Opportunity, which are used to activate stuff above that says opp)

Ikoma Shizuru wrote: ↑

Wed May 20, 2020 9:57 am

I've tentatively voted yes on the poll, but I think implementation will make or break this mechanic. I think it's something that should be added and worked on throughout the beginning stages of the campaign. If they break the game in some way or end up useless, it's easy enough to pull them out and refund the XP invested. If they need tweaking, that can be handled in a feedback thread. It's hard to say anything definitively without first seeing how the mechanics function in play.

As someone who primarily plays courtiers, I really liked the addition of shūji in 5E. In 4E, playing a courtier is about being proactive. It requires very heavy GM interaction in order to figure out whether or not you can do something with your skills or advantages. I think shūji are a good way to lessen the required interaction and provide some fun maneuvers that can be used in RP.

This really does some up my feeling about it. Courtiers are a lot of "GM may I?" and these will give them more options. More options are rarely worse than less, and if you don't want to use them, don't. As is, i would like to see more Kata options in general because i feel they mostly don't get used because most of them are bad, not because the concept itself is bad

Adding more options to courtiers than just skills and advantages seems interesting, so I've voted yes. Though, I'm hoping that they would be more than just flat bonuses, and instead expand options for various skills beyond their regular purview.
At the same time, improved kata would also be great. Honestly, most kata are rather weak or boring, pigeonholing bushi to build around the handful that are good or allow for interesting builds. This, combined with the expenditure of a simple action, also leads to only buying one kata and avoiding switching to any other kata mid-battle.

Asako Sanzo wrote: ↑

Fri May 22, 2020 11:18 pm

Honestly, most kata are rather weak or boring, pigeonholing bushi to build around the handful that are good or allow for interesting builds. This, combined with the expenditure of a simple action, also leads to only buying one kata and avoiding switching to any other kata mid-battle.

Kata rules have been errata'd to allow you to activate a kata for free on the initiative roll, just FYI, and allow all Buchi to buy any kata, regardless if it is listed for them or not (though at an increased cost if your school isn't listed but clan is, or at an increased cost and requiring Obligation disadvantage if your school AND clan isn't listed)

I did notice that! The free activation and increased availability are definitely nice, and it does address some of the problem. Still, the larger issue is still with the kata themselves being so weak and/or bland.
Though, I do really like what 5e did with them, giving you many more options which are both useful and flavorful, and options which are stance-based or weapon-based.

Balancing will be very, very important but anything that helps distinguish and differentiate courtiers and court scenes other than the same few skills and awareness is good in my eyes.