Mechanic: Inheritance: Katana

[Bayushi Jiro]

A non-duelling focused school probably should have to pay something extra to make up for the fact that they are naturally better in skirmishes than the premier dueling school. I do agree with Prashant that one mandatory advantage really limits player choice, especially in story.

The solution is probably to create other ways to boost dueling that don't necessarily appeal to the Kakita and Shiba, or are gated to other schools. Dueling kata would make the most sense, I think. It wouldn't be as garbage as 3E's Art of the Duel, because they aren't ranked techniques. But it would provide multiple avenues to achieve a fighting chance (but not parity), rather than a this-or-nothing advantage. I suck at homebrewing, though, so don't look at me for the actual text of the kata.

[Kaito Haruki]

Was thinking about something like "the world is empty", but the designers made it cheaper for Kakita for some reason.

[Bayushi Jiro]

The fluff fits the Kakita philosophy. There should be kata for dueling that match the flavor of individual clans. Mirumoto should be easy. Scorpion have some commentary on dueling historically. Crab...that's harder.

[Kaiu Aiichiro]

The fluff fits the Kakita philosophy. There should be kata for dueling that match the flavor of individual clans. Mirumoto should be easy. Scorpion have some commentary on dueling historically. Crab...that's harder.

Didn't the Crab had that duelist school that specialized on death duels?

[Doji Kotomi]

In your examples the Inheritance adds +4. You have to win the focus roll by +5, so that means inheritance makes it so you only have to win by 1. Without the inheritance, it becomes a level playing field between duelists. If one person has the inheritance and one person doesn't, it could be the difference between kharmic strike or not.

So what we're saying is, if we include this it becomes mandatory for everyone to have this, meaning every player who intends to duel has to spend 5 xp before they even begin to work on their character or be behind immediately on duels.

Do we really want forced mandatory advantages?

So you suggest reworking the Kakita and Shiba?

No more than we should rework Matsu for combat, or Bayushi for court. Kakita are the best duelists in the empire, and they lose out on better combar skills to compensate

[Bayushi Jiro]

Didn't the Crab had that duelist school that specialized on death duels?

Yeah, but that was Art of the Duel...and Art of the Duel created more problems than it solved. I think the best thing is probably to avoid whole schools and focus on little fixes like kata. Possibly some ideas could be scavenged from that school, but it was fairly broken.

[Vutall]

I disagree with the assessment that it would be mandatory to purchase. Otherwise I feel like the argument could be made for a number of different advantages as well. Can't be an effective courtier without Bentens Blessing, for example.

[Kaito Haruki]

I thought it was a given that every courtier bought Benton's blessing?

[Bayushi Jiro]

Nope! None of my duelists have had Inheritance: Katana, either. But I usually play Crane. You don't really need either one, and I don't like to make unbeatable characters. I just like to talk like they're unbeatable.

[Iuchi Prashant]

Wait, I think it goes a bit differently there? If I'm calculating it right, after adding the adv,

Kakita 22k8+10 + 1k1 = 23k9+10 -> 21k10 +10 -> 10k10+22+10=> 10k10+32

Akodo 21k7 + 9 + 1k1 = 22k8 + 9 -> 18k10+9 -> 10k10 + 25

Although it's true that whenever people hit 10k10 the difference becomes even less pronounced - a 1k1 bonus drops from +6 to +4 if you're already at 10k10 to begin with.

In this particular case, the difference between the Akodo and Kakita is 7 points if both have or not have the advantage - may not seem awfully large for such a huge roll, but still more than enough to win focus with the same die roll. As IR goes up, all else being equal the Kakita's advantage grows up to 11 at IR5. That's quite a bit.

If the Akodo has the sword and the Kakita doesn't for some reason, the Kakita is only 1 point ahead - as IR goes up that grows up to 5 points ahead in IR 5, all else being equal. They are now similar, the Kakita still having a slight edge.

However, as I said before that means others trying to match a Kakita kinda 'need' the advantage. And if a Kakita has that advantage, catching up becomes almost impossible - another duelist 'needs' it to even have a chance (with the Kakita having a 7 to 11 head start even so). A Kakita with the inheritance blade against another char without it will be 12 points ahead of a similarly skilled duelist from another school at IR1, and 16 at IR5, if both have exactly the same stats.

At any rate I don't think it makes a big difference for what I'm saying either way, even if it's a +4 to both instead of a +6.

Once again - I don't think the advantage itself is not the greatest problem here, but I don't think it solves the problem either, and I'd argue it creates another one due to stimulating a "duelist arms race" in which anyone without the advantage is bound to lose.

Anyway, that's just how I feel and as others mentioned, I think this might be less of a problem at a table with less people, where the GM could kinda 'tone down' the arms race a bit with the NPCs, giving a duelist from another clan a chance to shine, even if struggling a bit.

[Doji Kotomi]

If people want to build something fun then this doesn't matter. If you want to build a power courtier then Bentens Blessing is mandatory. Same as this would be mandatory for anyone who is going to duel.

Bentens is also a little too good but not to the same level as this

[Kaito Haruki]

Maybe it wouldn't feel so bad if the iaijutsu duel is required to become topaz champion, what if it just gave (a large, but not game winning on its own) amount of TP?

[Bayushi Jiro]

Then it wouldn't be the Topaz Championship. It's a Crane event, and this is Rokugan. You think the Crabs aren't setting up Crab events for their guys to shine?

[Iuchi Prashant]

The solution is probably to create other ways to boost dueling that don't necessarily appeal to the Kakita and Shiba, or are gated to other schools. Dueling kata would make the most sense, I think. It wouldn't be as garbage as 3E's Art of the Duel, because they aren't ranked techniques. But it would provide multiple avenues to achieve a fighting chance (but not parity), rather than a this-or-nothing advantage. I suck at homebrewing, though, so don't look at me for the actual text of the kata.

I tend to agree with Jiro that Kata might be a good choice for this, but that means tinkering around a fair bit more. Kata based on the Art of the Duel weird duelling schools might be an option, but it's... Quite a bit of work, I guess.

Also for all Courtiers getting Benten's - I remember that pretty much happened all around, so it may be seen as a bit of a problem also. But then Courtiers have other things to do other than rolling only, whereas duels are pretty much all about having the best rolls, so there is that.

[Iuchi Prashant]

As for specialising in Shi duels - getting absurd amounts of Reduction would always be a way to get a better chance there I guess :p there are some ways to do that, but that's definitely besjdes the main point here

[Yasuki Ginkarasu]

Crab's one path for Dueling in 4th edition is now part of the Yasuki Yojimbo school. It gives reduction during the strike phase of a duel. I've had it pointed out to me repeatedly that the amount of damage a dedicated Kakita duelist can dish out generally just overlooks it as a minor speed bump.

[Kaito Haruki]

That's if they get enough free raises to make it to where they can do all the damage in one strike. If they fail to kill in that first strike, it then becomes a skirmish where crab can win the long game. Hence the reduction being goodish.

[Vutall]

I'd also like to throw it out that in my games specifically, I'm not a big fan of power gaming/must maximize everything. My games are a lot more about story than anything else, and I tend to do things in a way that facilitates that (See in Part 1 when I specifically chose low dice instead of killing three people)

My stance is that it is a strong advantge, but equally as strong as other specialist advantages such as Benten's Blessing for Courtiers, the new Bishamons blessing for Bushi, Hands of Stone for a Monk, Akodo Blade for an Akodo bushi, etc etc.

There are always going to be super strong things in the game, but the question is "Why would you have this"

I rarely tell my players no, but understand it deflates my willingness and eagerness to put time and effort into a game if my players suddenly all turn to number crunching only :S

[Doji Kotomi]

You're never going to get rid of number crunching. Players will always try to maximise rolls, it's the nature of rp

[Iuchi Prashant]

Well, yeah, if they can use Extra damage, then it may get tough. With Str 3 we'd be looking at 6k2 + 1k1+Void (if used directly for damage instead of strike), plus as many extra damage dice as they can. If capped by Void 5, that'd be +5k0, so 12k3 +5 or 10k4 +5, unless they use Honor for that instead. Add +1k1 from a VP and +1k0 from kenjutsu 3 and we get 14k4+5, or 10k6+5

The chance to get an Earth 4 char with no reduction to a +10 penalty or worse would then be 98 percent; +15 would be 85 percent, +20 would be 57 percent if I did my math right

With the Yasuki Yojimbo advantage granting 12 reduction (considering Earth 4), that chance drops to 72%, 43% and 19 percent.

May not be the greatest thing ever, but I don't think it's that useless Ginka

All that said - like V, I am not a great fun of powergaming even if I understand that people will try and to that at times. That's one of the reasons I don't particularly like an advantage becoming so important to be able to tell the story that "you're a good duelist".

But then again, that's just my opinion : )

Edit: Ok I forgot exceptional raises. That makes things a bit harder, damage may reach 19k4+5, or 10k8+5

Chances change to
-10. 0.99 , or 0.89 with reduction 12
-15. 0.95, or 0.68 with reduction 12
-20 0.79 , or 0.42 with reduction 12

Harder to keep up, but still much easier with the reduction!